Feminism Destroys the Natural Order as Elites Look on With Glee

Transcript

Occult Secrets of Witchcraft and the Rise of Feminism

 At this time period. Yeah, yeah. People might be surprised to learn. We think that like the gender swapping or gender abolition ideas are new. A lot of people think that’s from the last decade or two, but these are actually very old ideas that do go back to this period. You could arguably even say they go back to ancient times, but certainly during the revolutionary period in France, you had people like Simon Gannot and Mary Wollstonecraft and other gender bending figures who wanted gender abolition. We’re talking the late 1700s. And this was always a part of feminism. Feminism always had elements of it that wanted gender abolition, and basically just to erase any sort of boundaries or differences among people. One of the people I wanted to mention today too is Mary Woll, not just Mary Wollstonecraft, but Victoria Woodhull, who was an American women’s lib person from the 19th century and she gave a famous speech where she made appeals to religious liberty in the American constitution, which was, you know, born out of this revolutionary period as well. And she insisted that the natural conclusion of the ideas in the constitution and of this revolutionary period, we’re going to be abolition of marriage and even gender abolition. 

Cause she said these, uh, things were, you know, central to liberty, like this ultimate liberty for liberty sake, right? We’re going to just get rid of divisions between people, boundaries and differences that could cause conflict, and that’s gonna lead us to this new age, one world era of peace. So these are very old ideas that were baked into feminism right from the start. So you couldn’t have, as you pointed out, the present day, you know, trans movement, if you had not had bump it back three or four quote revolutionary movements to feminism. Feminism is what prepares the way for where we are now. And this is precisely why, for example, a lot of the mainline conservative movements will go after the biology attack, the trans agenda, but they won’t talk about the prior revolution of feminism because too many so-called right-wingers are themselves feminists. Now, there was a woman, there was a movement that I’m sure you know of called the Saint Simonians, and they followed this philosopher called Saint-Simon, who was one of the philosophers of this period, and they eventually came out with this idea of the future female Messiah that would replace the Christian idea of Jesus as the Messiah, or a male patriarchal deity. And so, you know, this happened in the 1800s in France, the Saint Simonians under somebody called Father Anfantine, the year of the father, a large group of Saint Simonians in 1833 proclaimed it the year of the mother, the year of the goddess, and that there would be a Saint Peter of the feminine Messiah who would come to usher in a new age of the rise of the feminine principle to overtake the patriarchal masculine. So now we’re getting into religious territory and into cult territory. Were you familiar with that? Do you think that overlaps with the idea of witchcraft tying into this? Yeah, absolutely. 

People might be really surprised to learn that in the 1840s alone, in America, there were over 80 experimental utopian cults that came out of this period with ideas about swapping gender roles, about a divine feminine. And some of these were even kind of like Protestant offshoot type of cults and communities that were experimenting with ideas of human liberation and these revolutionary ideas. And they kind of rejected the idea of God the Father as this, you know, because a lot of this was against the church as well, right? The revolutionary period was not just against monarchy, it was also against the power and authority of the church, the Roman Catholic Church in England especially, but all throughout Europe. So there was a lot of efforts to kind of bend and twist Christianity into something that was unrecognizable to the previous centuries of Christianity and also to kind of move Christians toward the occult. For example, you have the Saint Simonians and then also here in the United States you had Elizabeth Cady Stanton and 24 other feminists rewrite the first five books of the Bible. It was called the Woman’s Bible and it was one of the most popular books of its day. Now it’s not a Bible at all, so the name is a bit misleading and what St Stanton said her whole aim with rewriting the first five books of the Old Testament from this feminist perspective, she said, we would love to do away with Christianity and the Bible altogether if we could. 

She actually, she’s often labeled as a Christian, but she said in the preface to her own book that she never believed that any man saw or spoke to God. She didn’t believe that God gave us the Mosaic Law. She basically didn’t believe Christianity at all, but she said, look, it’s too influential. The Bible is so popular worldwide and so many people believe it that we really can’t get rid of it. What we have to do is revise it to the point that it’s unrecognizable because she firmly believed and said in the preface to the book, women’s liberation will not be possible as long as Christianity is in our way. So you get a lot of these weird little cults experimenting with utopian Marxism and gender swapping and bringing this element of the divine feminine into Protestant Christianity on a big scale. And this is something that’s never really talked about. And it happened both in America and in Europe around this time. Yeah, the chapter on revolutionary feminist women in the Billington book has a section about the St. Simonians where it says, quote, their first goal was to build a new type of family, which was the prerequisite for a new type of society. Don’t go anywhere. This is the out with my guest Rachel Wilson.

 Welcome back. I guess as Jay Dyer of Jason else’s we were just reading in the famous James H. Billington book, the argument about how if we wanted to renovate and redo all of society, the area that we would start is the family. That’s the St. Simonian revolutionary technique and target that they had. And they knew that because they understood if they could destroy the family unit and make it something part of the collective and part of the state, then you could have a supposedly new type of society because the family is the first quote fascist institution to a lot of the Marxist socialists. And so that’s the first area that you would have to target and destroy. And then we were getting into this element of witchcraft and the occult. So I’d like to move to that next, and then maybe in the next segment we’ll get into some of the more recent cases of elite funding and establishment for radical feminist organizations and groups and publications and whatnot. But you know, they’re talking about a new female messiah. That seems to evoke the idea of the goddess. And in witchcraft, probably the most fundamental element there is the goddess. She’s really the focus of that religion. 

And a lot of these groups seem to draw, even if they’re not explicit religious, a lot of the feminist and radical movements seem to draw from the occult and from witchcraft because of this preeminence of the feminine principle, the goddess. I’ve read on medieval and late medieval and Elizabethan era witchcraft and Wicca and all that where it arises from, European witchcraft. And yeah, the notion of the male principle being at war with the female principle and the witch is choosing to sort of side with the feminine principle. That seems to be the logic of how it would be useful for feminist movements to pull from. What would you, how would you explain this to people? What is the connection between feminism and witchcraft? Right, so the reason my book is called Occult Feminism, it’s actually kind of a twofold meaning. One is that it’s occult in the traditional sense of just meaning it’s hidden. This history has been completely obscured and gatekept because women’s studies programs starting in 1970, which were created by the Ford and Rockefeller Foundations and all the lovely folks associated with those entities, did not want relatively Christian America, we’re talking 1970s suburban families, right, that they’re trying to really promote feminism to at this time. 

They didn’t want this history of it being bound up with things like theosophy and the occult to be well-known because Americans are going to reject that, right? Most of the normal family people are gonna reject it. So most people don’t know, almost every suffragette you’ve heard of, almost every famous women’s liberation activist from all the way from the beginning of the revolutionary period through when suffrage was passed. And even after that, they were spirit mediums, fortune tellers, tarot card readers, they practiced various forms of witchcraft, theosophy or occult magic. The Golden Dawn had its own female priestesses who were suffragettes, who were out marching and doing terrorist acts in England and in the United States as well. So there’s an old saying that there was hardly a suffragette that didn’t sit at the seance table. This was certainly true. So if you are a feminist, right, it’s kind of a chicken or the egg situation where it’s like, are feminists drawn to the occult because it’s a complete inversion of Christianity? 

Christianity being a patriarchal religion built on God the Father and a literal patriarchy. Therefore all of this occult goddess worship stuff is very appealing. Or is it that goddess worship in the occult developed as like an antithetical religious system to something like Christianity? So either way, let’s say you’re a young woman who goes off to college and gets radicalized into like some of the really crazy feminist stuff, you’re going to reject any Christian upbringing you had as oppressive. And so you still need some kind of spiritual dimension to your life, especially for women. The very first founder of the first American witch coven, Susanna Budapest said this, she said, “‘W women need a spiritual dimension and feminism is the political arm of witchcraft. That was a quote from her. She started the first American witch coven called the Susan B. Anthony Coven Number One. And she was the first person in California to get witchcraft laws overturned in, I believe the 1950s or 60s. So there’s always been this link where if you’re a rebellious woman, you don’t want to be under church authority or you want political liberation. These occult religions are very appealing. Even now, they’re very appealing, even in modern times. In fact, various forms of witchcraft are the fastest growing religions in both England and America now. Things like Wicca forms of witchcraft are the fastest growing religions in both England and America now. 

Things like Wicca, you know, green witchcraft that’s very like environmentally activist or or. It kind of all ties in, right, the socialism, the Marxism, the veganism, the feminism. Yeah, it’s all kind of a rebellion against anything male, anything patriarchal, anything like God the Father or men, masculine principles. Instacart helps you get beer and wine delivered in as fast as an hour. So whether you need to fill the cooler for tailgate season or fill your glass for Pino by the fire season, you can save time by getting fall sips delivered in just a few clicks. Visit instacart.com or download the app to get free delivery on your first three orders. Offer valid for a limited time, minimum order $10, additional terms apply. Must be 21 or over for alcohol delivery where available. Instacart, add life to cart. 

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They do see, because you guys probably know this Marxist oppressor, oppressed narrative, they see the history of men and women as being in opposition to one another. That’s why if you go to Wichita, right, you go to Wichita, you’re going to see lots of women who are really into Lilith worship or, you know, it’s kind of like a pick your own goddess buffet. Like Inanna is my favorite and I’m gonna worship the divine feminine. So it’s just very appealing if you have this feminist political ideology that’s opposed to hierarchy, right? Yeah, exactly. One question I would have, which I’m sure a lot of, you know, this is probably the most common rebuttal that you get and it’s, well, Rachel, but wait a minute, weren’t all of the women prior to this basically in a slave relationship, they were oppressed. Why would you be against freeing them up from the oppression that they were under? Is that even true? 

Yeah, so a large part of my book is devoted to kind of debunking that myth. As we just explained, I mean, how were women traveling the world and being paid and promoted by the wealthiest elites to push feminism in the 18th and 19th century if they were so oppressed? You would think that they would have suffered some kind of consequence, but that wasn’t true. And this is another thing that most people don’t know. Suffrage and women’s liberation was extremely unpopular right up until the time that it passed, right? Until suffrage passed in 1918 in the UK and then 1919 here in the US. They tried holding a couple of referendums to see if women wanted the vote. And the few women who bothered to show up, only 4% of them voted in favor of women’s suffrage. And the suffragettes actually, after this, blocked any women’s referendums on voting. So it’s very ironic, right? The very women who are saying, give women the vote, give women the vote, are saying, but don’t let them vote on whether they want the vote, because they’ll say no. And you might think, oh, well, that’s because they’ve, they’d always been so oppressed that they didn’t know, you know, they were scared of life, not being oppressed. They were afraid to be liberated or something along those lines, but that was actually not the reasoning they gave. 

And Susan B. Anthony herself said in her history of women’s suffrage, that the reason women didn’t want suffrage is because they were very happy and enjoyed a lot of protections and provisions under male suffrage that they did not want to give up. And there was a vast amount of anti-suffrage organizations all through the 19th century and the early 20th century who had much bigger membership than pro-suffrage groups. They had very thoughtful people who would debate, they would put out pamphlets, they would put out, you know, posters explaining the reasons they didn’t want suffrage for women or this idea of women’s liberation. And they knew they could foresee that this was the purpose of this was to break down the family family and to destroy the family and the all that thought we’re going to go to commercial brain this is the out we’ll be right back. Dyer of Jay’s analysis if you’d like to support my work you can go to my website jaysanalysis.com and in the shop you can get access to all of my books over there as well as my wife Jamie’s books deconstructing Hollywoodructing Hollywood, Philosophy Books, et cetera. You want it, it’s all there. All signed copies in the shop. Today, my guest is Rachel Wilson. Her book is Occult Feminism, and we’re talking about the roots and origin of the modern women’s liberation movements and all of the different phases and waves of feminism. 

And we were just talking about some of the objections that, well, but weren’t women oppressed and weren’t they basically slaves back then, which isn’t really the case. And what would you say to the objection, Rachel, when people say, well, but what about maybe a third wave feminism’s bad, but like those older ones are all good. That’s kind of the new so-called conservative talking point is that third wave feminism, and that those older ones are all good. That’s kind of the new so-called conservative talking point is that third wave feminism and you know that’s where it gets really bad. All the other ones are virtuous movements. Yeah, well part of this is a symptom of their literal rewriting of the history. There’s a wonderful paper by Professor Joe C. Miller where he looked at the 13 mainline history textbooks used in universities to study the history of women’s liberation from about 1900 on. And when he examined them, now he’s more of a progressive liberal professor himself, but he examined these and he said, okay, they’ve actually, as time gone on, written out large sections of the movement because they were not politically expedient and they did not help with the propaganda. 

So they didn’t mention the fact that like theosophy and spiritualism, which were huge movements in England and America in the mid 19th century, were inextricably linked to first wave feminism. There’s a book by author Joy Dixon, it’s called The Divine Feminine Theosophy and Feminism in England, and she says that theosophy was a major influence on suffragettes in both England and the United States. Helena Blavatsky worked closely with a lot of them. There was a really disproportionately high amount of membership in the Theosophical Society among suffrage activists. And as we as we already mentioned a lot of them were anything from snake oil salesmen to faith healers to automatic writers and and some of this was a bit yes yes some of this was a bit of a bid to be able to say things publicly that maybe they wouldn’t be able to otherwise, but they also did a lot of things like readings for a lot of the wealthy elites of the time, and this was a way to get funding for suffrage. So a really good example of this would be Victoria Woodhull, who I just mentioned gave the speech about gender and marriage abolition. She said she was contacted by the spirit of Demosthenes, the Greek order, who told her to go to Manhattan and find Cornelius Vanderbilt and give him a reading. So she did just that and they worked together. So that’s where a lot of her funding came from. They actually ended up gaming the stock market together. They ripped off the stock market in the first Black Friday crash for $23 million. And the papers went to Vanderbilt and said, it was kind of like they were asking him, are you doing some insider trading? They said, how could you know? Like, how’d you know this was gonna happen? And you made all the right moves to make all this money. And he said, do as I do, consult the spirits, right? Well, it turns out that Woodhull had a great friend who Josie Mansfield, who was kind of a madam, and she had a prostitution ring where she had spies that were connected to a lot of Vanderbilt’s business rivals and a lot of wealthy stock market guys. And that’s where she had gotten these tips from. So some of them were true believers. Some of them used it more as a front to conduct espionage and things like that. Yeah, and I would say Theosophy really in my view is that as well, Theosophy functioned as a way for the British power elite to have agents like Blavatsky to who’s really in my view, just an agent of the Milner-Fabian elite. 

She was herself a Fabian socialist. And that was why she had so many contacts in the Soviet Union at that time amongst Bolsheviks, who were also many of them into theosophy. You mentioned this character, this woman you’re talking about, this is very closely parallels one of the other female messiahs of the mid-1800s. The figure, her name is Flora Tristan E. Moscoza, and she left her husband and then went to London and became a radical socialist who tied the notion of women’s rights to the workers’ proletariat rights to, quote, prepare the world for a future utopian civilization. And it says, after she visited the famous lunatic asylum of Bedlam, she came away with a sense of her messianic destiny. It was now her job as a feminine messiah to proclaim that all religions and everyone in the world, we are all one. So she has a new universalist, monist religious calling to proclaim the future feminine dominated society. 

And I bring that up because she wrote a book where in the fiction story, the feminine mess Messiah meets a billionaire banker and converts him and they save the world together. So it’s funny how the socialist Marxists are so adamant about trying to find the billionaires that they can convert to their cause, which really they should just look to the funders of their causes because that’s a good segue into what we wanted to talk about. In the Rockefeller’s authorized biography by Collier and Horowitz, there’s an entire chapter on cell 16 and the radical feminists of the third wave. And all of the money and support, quite a substantial amount of money and support that they got from Abby Rockefeller, who herself was a radical feminist who hated femininity, hated her own gender. And decided that the way to achieve, again, this is a Rockefeller. This is not a college professor Marxist, a street level agitator. This is somebody from the dynasty of the most wealthy people in the United States, or one of the most wealthy, powerful families in the United States, pushing Marxism, socialism. And it reminds me that when Alex Jones did the interview years ago with Aaron Russo, that clip is on my Twitter. It’s got quite a few views. If you look at it, it’s just a little brief clip where Aaron Russo talks about talking to Nick Rockefeller, another member of the family. 

Nick Rockefeller told him that the job of that family in regard to women’s rights was to push it to the degree to where it would be recognized throughout the country so that women would get out of the house, into the workplace, that’s more taxation, and it cuts down on population. Because now women will not be having children, they won’t be moms, they’re going to be in the workforce as a slave now to their new patriarchal master, Mr. Corporation. Yes, exactly. There’s one other really important figure we should mention in this section. Her name’s Alva Vanderbilt Belmont. It’s quite a mouthful. And yes, she has a couple of different last names. That’s because her first husband, what husband was William K. Vanderbilt. He was the grandson of Cornelius Vanderbilt and one of the founders of the Jekyll Island Club, who was the same group, this group of six men that met at the Jekyll Island Club in 1910 to secretly draft the legislation that would create the Federal Reserve. That was her first husband. She married two elite bankers. He was the first. She was granted a divorce from him, one of the first wealthy women, prominent, famous women to get a divorce. She got $320 million in today’s money from that divorce and had been having an affair with William Vanderbilt’s best friend, Oliver Hazard Perry Belmont, from the Belmont banking family, which were the primary agents of the Rothschild interests in America at this time. So she got this double inheritance. Oliver died soon after they got married, so she was one of the wealthiest women in the world, and had all these elite connections. 

And she decided to fund, basically, almost all on her own, the National Organization for Women’s Suffrage in America. She, both in England and the United States, she would bail out terrorist suffragettes who would do bombings or arson fires or even assassination attempts in order to push suffrage. She bought many of their headquarters. She funded most of the conferences. Without that money, I’m not sure that we’d see women’s liberation as it’s happened today. And then the other big one would be Phoebe Hearst. She is from the Hearst media empire. She was the mother of William Randolph Hearst. And she was a member of the Baha’i faith. If you guys don’t know what that is, probably one of the first big globalist, it was a particularly a globalist faith. It’s still around today, but not as popular. It called for a global new world order, government, a one world religion, a one world language. Hold that thought. We got to go to the break. Hold that thought. We got to go to the commercial break. This is the show with Rachel Wilson. I’m your guest host, Jay Dyer of Jay’s and Elle’s. Welcome back to the fourth hour of the show. We’re talking about the history of occult feminism, the secret history of women’s liberation by Rachel Wilson. 

The other thing that we were getting into that reminds me of establishment push and funding for this is not just, well, the elite love socialism, they love leftism. The billionaires push this because it’s great for collectivization of wealth and then transferring that wealth offshore. Another reason they like it is because it’s a better way to create a malleable and controllable population when the super state, the corporate state, becomes the mommy and the daddy figure at the same time. So it’s not just big brother, it’s also nanny state, it’s mommy, daddy state. Both can be, the role can be fulfilled by the super corporate state. That’s what they would like to have in their technocratic agenda. And there’s many examples that we can find of the intelligence agencies, NGOs, and think tanks, deep state shadowy private groups that have actually put extensive amounts of funding into these kinds of things. We mentioned Abby Rockefeller’s support for third wave feminism, which was quite a substantial amount of money to get that going. And that was done in part through CEL16 and Chicago University, which was itself a Rockefeller founded university. But there’s also the history of Gloria Steinem, the famous activist feminist, who when she worked with Miss Magazine, it was later revealed that Miss Magazine received a lot of CIA funding and she openly admitted that, yes, she was actually part of working with the CIA. And then in fact, the CIA was not a conservative organization. It was an anti-Soviet organization during the Cold War. That does not make it a conservative or a right-wing organization per se. 

In fact, that organization, as well as many intelligence agencies and deep state entities have typically been more favorable towards liberal approaches, socialist, Fabian socialist approaches. So we have to be careful how we understand these entities and organizations. Rachel, what do you think about that story of Gloria Steinem admitting that she was a very close collaborator with the CIA during that 60s counterculture period to push liberation as supposedly a, which I think is a false dialectical opposition to Sovietism. Yeah, definitely. So again, we’ll see that Gloria Steinem’s grandmother and mother both were theosophists. A lot of people don’t know this. She wrote a column about it a couple decades ago, I think. I found this really obscure column that she had published that’s it’s really hard to find now, but I do mention it in my book. So she does have this background of theosophy going on in the family and she goes to like the preeminent women’s college, Smith College, and gets recruited pretty much right out of Smith College by the CIA to travel the world and through the Congress for Cultural Freedom push feminism as like this dialectical opposition to communism, which is very ironic because if you go back to the Bolshevik government, the Bolshevik government under Lenin had one of the first female cabinet ministers of all time. 

Her name was Alexandra Kolontai. We have tons of her writings now, now that we’ve got more documentation from this time period where she explicitly talks about how we need to break up the family. The family has got to go because this is how men establish, you know, a legacy, how they earn private property. The motivation for them wanting to start a business or own anything is the family. So we have to get rid of that and do away with it so that there’s no longer any motivation for men to do this and everything can be done through the state. And she was perfectly willing to work with a lot of liberal, liberal feminists of the time, even though you would think the Marxist feminists and the liberal feminists were opposed. In theory they were, but in practicality, they often worked together. They wrote letters back and forth, explaining to each other how they’re getting their agendas passed. So there’s really not this like opposition to a lot of the goals of capitalism and Marxism that people think there were. 

And feminism is one of the great historical pieces we can look to to see this synthesis happening, right? Well, now, wait a minute, though. Why would capitalists want to fund something like feminism? Isn’t that more of a socialist thing? And now you’re saying that, why would capitalists like feminism? Now, again, it calls to mind what we just mentioned with Aaron Russo and Nick Rockefeller and his comments about getting them out of the household. But doesn’t this then contribute to overall depopulation in your view? Yes, feminism is also historically linked to both eugenics and getting them out of the household. But doesn’t this then contribute to overall depopulation in your view? Yes. Feminism is also historically linked to both eugenics and depopulation with people like Margaret Sanger. But it’s not coincidental that feminism did not become this like dominating political force until after the Industrial Revolution, the passage of the income tax, the passage of the Federal Reserve Act. So getting women out of the family where both capitalists and Marxists lamented that women’s labor was not being taxed, women’s labor was not accessible to them. They couldn’t monetize it for the corporate system. And they could foresee that getting women out of the home and into the factories would allow them much higher income tax base, cheaper labor. It would also allow access to the children because the children have to go somewhere during the day if both parents work. So then you see state daycares in early Soviet Russia. 

They were called creches. They became indoctrination centers. And we had our own liberal version here in the West of pushing kids into state-owned daycare and public school systems, which also began to crop up around the same time period. So these things are all working together for the same goals of, and we see birth rates drop off, right? We see birth control. So they’ve really, through feminism, achieved a lot of their goals, probably more than any singular revolution, I would say. Yeah, I remember the name of the book, Escapes Me, you would probably remember it. The Collins Brothers wrote an article about this too, where some of the leading academic feminist writers today in the academic world, there’s a book about the Luciferian connection and feminism as a form of goddess Luciferian worship. And then there’s also statements, I think, from those authors saying that we would need to kill God the Father in order to bring about the full liberation. Do you know which book I’m talking about? 

I always forget the name of this book. I think you’re talking about Satanic Feminism by Per Faxnald. He’s a professor in Sweden who wrote this, his PhD thesis was about how women of the suffrage era openly declared Luciferianism to be their founding, guiding principle. Yeah. Yeah, so it’s always been in opposition to God the Father to be their founding, guiding principle. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s always been an opposition to God, the father and to fatherhood, into paternity, into patriarchy. Well, and there’s something about, you know, women have a lot of great things that they’re good at, you know, when it comes to nurturing and raising children and all the things that guys can’t do. Guys don’t have, I mean, if there’s a emergency situation where somebody dies, then the guy has to fill that role. Yeah, and vice versa, the woman has to fill the role if a man leaves or something like that. But we’re not actually fitted to do the exact same things. We have different skill sets and different abilities. So that’s just part of the natural order. So it seems to me that all of this is really a rebellion against nature itself and the natural order. And by that, I mean the natural order that God created. 

I don’t mean natural order in some enlightenment, naturalist sense, in a materialist sense. I mean, natural law in the sense of Roman law and so forth, right, that we’re made clearly with a purpose and that’s even stamped into our bodies, into our biology. And all of this seems to be actually motivated by a kind of demonic rebellion against even that, against nature itself. The idea that, so it’s not actually, what I’m getting at is that feminism and all this is not actually an exaltation of women. It’s actually an attack on women. Yes, exactly. I would agree with you on that. And Koh-Landai wrote herself that once we get the social order inverted, once this social question is solved, our next and final frontier is to conquer nature itself. And this is why you see this rebellion against the natural order, against… She actually says that. Almost Gnostic. 

Yes, she explicitly says that. That’s what I was going to say. It’s a Gnostic revolution of process. That’s actually what dialectical materialism of Marxism is, a neo-gnostic dialectical process philosophy, mystical mystery religion. Yes, exactly. That’s exactly how she described it. I was just going to say this is very tied in with like a new form of Gnosticism as well, this idea that nature is bad, God the Father is the evil demigod who created us in this restrictive order that we have to invert and overcome. Yeah. The process, by the way, of conflict, they believe, is itself the end goal. The conflict and chaos never goes away. And so it’s in the pre-Socratic philosophy, this is called Heraclitianism, which is the idea that all reality is constantly changing in influx. And so it’s in the pre-Socratic philosophy, this is called Heraclitianism, which is the idea that all reality is constantly changing in influx. And so that actually is itself the mystical process that brings about apotheosis. But it’s not really apotheosis, it’s actually a self-destructive negation. It’s actually an act against nature and existence. So Rachel, thank you so much. The book is Occult Feminism, and you wanna give us your links? Yes, if you wanna follow me on Twitter, slash X, I’m at Rach, the number four patriarchy.